Transcript



Ashley:

What's going on y’all! This is Culture and Code, a podcast brought to you by Render Atlanta. If you're not already familiar with what Render Atlanta is, we are an organization dedicated to increasing the presence of black and brown people in all stages of the tech pipeline. We do so with different events and at experiences focused on not just tech, but also culture and how it brings people together. Our main experience, which I am personally super excited about, is our annual Render Atlanta conference held in Atlanta. Our next conference will be June 1st through fourth in 2022. It is super exciting. We have a ton of great speakers lined up some amazing food, and even an after party music festival, it's going to be incredible. And I absolutely cannot wait for y'all to experience it. You have got to get in on it if you haven't already. To learn more about us and keep up with our events, you can visit our website renderatl.com. You can also follow us on Twitter or Instagram @renderATL and join the conversation on our Discord at renderatl.com/discord.



Will (@willjohnsonio):

What's up, everybody? Welcome to the Culture and Code podcast brought to you by Render ATL, The software engineering conference in Atlanta. Today's guest is Nader Dabit. How you doing, Nader?



Nader:

I'm doing awesome. Thank you for having me.



Will:

Yeah, no problem. I'm glad to have you here. So for the people who don't know who you are, can you just tell a little bit about yourself?



Nader:

Yeah, I've been a developer for about 10 years, self taught. I've done quite a few different things and changed specialties a few times, and right now I'm working as a developer relations engineer in a company called Edge & Node, and it's a Web3 or blockchain company, and I've been doing this for about eight months now focusing on this space, so I think that's kind of what we're here to chat about.



Will:

Yeah, for sure. We're definitely here to talk about Web3. I hear a lot of people talking about Web3. It's all over the Twitter timeline, news articles, email lists. I see it all over the place. So for the people who are unfamiliar, what is web3?



Nader:

Yeah, so I mean, there are a couple different definitions that you'll probably hear or see if you start doing some research, but to me the most concise definition is that Web3 is the stack of protocols that enable fully decentralized applications. And then based on the outcome of what these applications that are being built become, then you start seeing characteristics within other parts of not only software but society that are enabled by these new protocols. So some of those things would be things like native digital payments, so cryptocurrencies, self sovereign identity, where people can actually own their identity profiles and manage those themselves as opposed to having third parties do that, ownership of the data that they create, so ownership of their content that they control completely. Decentralized web infrastructure, I guess you could say is another big one. This idea of kind of like open public composable back ends. It enables new ways for people to organize and create companies and new incentive mechanisms for organization around building stuff, so you start seeing DAOs and more community owned projects that are enabled to kind of buy some of this stuff.



Will:

So it's not just penguin JPEGs then?



Nader:

That's a tiny niche of it. That's kind of like ... It's so big that there's so much going on that it is easy to kind of get really diving into a single aspect of it and people will get the idea that whatever that thing that they're seeing is kind of what it's all about, but it's such a fundamental paradigm shift that is enabled by these new protocols that there's too much to kind of really explain concisely. So you'll see a lot of people diving into one area that's kind of what they think it is but in reality, there's a lot to it, I think.



Will:

Okay. Could you give us maybe a real world example of something Web3 that we would be familiar with like outside of NFTs, of course, like a real life use case?



Nader:

Yeah, I think that a couple that are really, really impactful already are decentralized finance or just financial applications that are permission-less and they don't have the gate-keeping mechanisms that we kind of see in traditional finance. So for instance, if you are someone that owning a computer anywhere in the world and you have internet access, you can earn tokens that have real world value, and there isn't anyone there to kind of tell you that you can't do that. So for over 70 countries in the world, there are laws in place that prevent certain people from opening a bank account, for example. So if you can't even open a bank account, how are you supposed to get paid or do business or get a job or anything like that? That's because the laws and the culture or whatever in that country are basically prejudice against certain types of people or whatever genders and stuff like that.



Nader:

So with the digital currencies, especially stable currencies that are pegged against things like the U.S. dollar, there's all types of things that are happening there. So for instance, if you want to build and be part of a DAO or something like that, these DAOs are essentially groups of people that get together to build stuff or to create what we previously maybe would have thought of as a company, and you can do some work and you'll get paid in these tokens and all you have to do to receive a token is just create a wallet, which is permission-less. Anyone can do that and you can start earning money, and then you can put that money to work in different decentralized finance defi protocols.



Nader:

So if you wanted to earn interest on your money in a bank but you don't have access to a bank account, then you can actually do that with defi and you can just put your money up and start earning interest and things like that. So that's one big area. And I think that's kind of like the original use case is cryptocurrencies, but now we're seeing it definitely expand beyond that. I mean, you mentioned kind of like digital art, that's one area that's starting to gain momentum. I think one really interesting area that we're starting to see a lot of companies diving into is gaming and this idea that people really, really enjoy this new concept that we're seeing with skins and stuff and Fortnite of end game currency and end game items that you can buy and sell and trade and kind of stand out from each other in the game.



Nader:

So with Fortnite, you have this idea of V-Bucks which are digital currency, and then you have this idea of skins and all of this other stuff that you can kind of equip, but the problem with ... Or I wouldn't say the problem with that, but the improvement upon that which Web3 brings is that in Fortnite, you can't really do anything with all of that value once you're done playing the game. You might spend $1,000 buying currency and skins, but when you're done, you can't really do anything with that. I think that what you're seeing now with Ubisoft and with Axie Infinity and even big gaming companies, a couple of them that have started moving towards this idea of having items that are available to earn or buy or kind of get some type of control of within the game using an NFT, and this NFT is then transferable not only within the game, but outside of the game.



Nader:

So Axie Infinity was kind of like the really first big use case where this actually worked, where you saw billions of dollars of transactions happening, 95% of that value was able to be kept by the users. So instead of 100% of the money going to the platform, only 5% of the money went to the platform, 95% stayed within the users. So if you spend a week or a month or a year playing this game and you decide that you don't want to play it anymore, all of that value that you've kind of accumulated related over that time, you can then sell it to other people within the game or you can transfer it to other people really easily, or you have ownership of it almost. It's kind of like blockchain essentially just enabling digital scarcity and digital items that cannot be replicated in the sense of what we're used to with being able to just kind of duplicate a million items in a database, instead when you have a blockchain, you're able to kind of keep this permission-less global ledger that everyone can kind of see, and that's kind of like a big fundamental difference I would say.



Will:

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense and I love how you brought it to things that we already know because a lot of these things are already happening just in different forms, like the Fortnite skin is really no different than an NFT, but as you said, you don't get any value from it. My son has all types of skins, but he can't sell them to his friends, he doesn't get anything out of them besides wearing them and once he's tired of them, that's it, then that money is down the drain.



Will:

Yo, what's good? If you're enjoying this episode, we'd love for you to hang with us and talk about it in the Render Discord. You can join at RenderATL.com/Discord. We'd also love to kick it with you in person at our conference. It's June 1st through 4th in Atlanta, you can get your tickets and more information RenderATL.com. You can also stay up to date with us on Twitter and Instagram @RenderATL.



Will:

What would you say to the Web3 skeptics of people who are ... That's calling it a scam and a Ponzi and things like that. You're definitely deep into it. What would be your advice to them to make them kind of give it a try?



Nader:

I don't really think that it's worth talking to the people that are using that type of language. They usually ...



Will:

Okay.



Nader:

Kind of like I would say for the most part, when they've gone that far, they've kind of like put themselves in a position publicly where they want to take a stance and there's no evidence that will change them. It's almost like speaking to a religious person about trying to convince them that their religion is wrong or someone like an extreme politician. I think the more interesting discussions are happening around the people that are open minded and are nuanced, where they will say ... They'll express skepticism without being extremely harsh in their language, and that typically means that they're just open minded people that are obviously seeing that this is just a technology that has its drawbacks as well as it's upsides. And those are the people that are often the most enjoyable to have these skeptical conversations with. There are also people that just use these really foul talking points and create toxic environments that just say stuff like that, that don't really want to have the discussion and those are the people I tend to stay away from.



Will:

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I would probably do the exact same thing.



Nader:

Yeah.



Will:

So for someone who's curious about getting into Web3 as a programmer, what would you kind of tell them to look or kind of get started with?



Nader:

Yeah, so I think that taking a step back, this is just another building block or another primitive or another platform that you can start programming for. It's not one of these things that's going to take over the world and replace everything, it's just now we have a new paradigm. That's exactly what it is, a new paradigm, and you can do cool stuff with it. That doesn't mean all of our Web2 stuff is going away, it just means when VR came out, we now have a new platform to program for. When mobile devices came out, we had a new platform to build for. When machine learning came out, we had new ways to build programs. With Web3 and block chains, we just have new ways to build stuff.



Nader:

That's the way I would look at it and I wouldn't say oh, this is the thing that I'm going to learn and I'm not going to learn anything else. It would just be more like this is another thing that I can learn and then the more that you learn, the more that becomes unlocked to you as a developer because you start realizing more opportunities because you start seeing how oh, this idea will fit in with [inaudible] which is kind of like a centralized solution. This idea might be something I would use for machine learning, but this idea might work well in Web3. And the more things that you learn, the more things that you can do, and that's kind of the way I would look at it as a developer. I wouldn't kind of look at it as like an either or, I would just look at it as kind of like ... And of a company [inaudible] thing.



Nader:

But as far as like what technologies to learn, definitely I would say ... I always focus on this idea of the Pareto principle, like what is the 80/20 rule for the thing that I'm learning? What is the most value that I can learn with the least amount of effort? In the JavaScript world to me right now, that would be something like React where you kind of learn how to do a thing in this framework but you can build for mobile and web and desktop and all types of applications, gaming and VR. So for me and the blockchain Web3 world, that would be something like the Ethereum virtual machine, and this allows you to build not only on Ethereum, but a bunch of layer twos and sidechains of Ethereum, as well as other blockchains, like Avalanche, Sello, Fantom, and all these things.



Nader:

So this is kind of like a suite of not only programming languages like Solidity, but also develop environment like Hard Hat and just understanding the programming environment of the Ethereum virtual machine. So yeah, I would say if you want to get into Web3, the EVM stack would be Solidity, Hard Hat, and something like Ethers.js. Those three things along with a front end framework like React and you'll start being able to kind of understand what's going on, I would say.



Will:

Okay. And you have a blog post, kind of like a get started guide with those, right?



Nader:

Yeah, I do. Let's see here, I have a few different blog posts. I have an intro to Ethereum that's called 'The Complete Guide to Full Ethereum' but I think the one that you're talking about is 'How to Get into Crypto and Web3 as a Developer', and this is kind of like not only talking about the technological stack, the tech stack, but it's also kind of just talking about the drawbacks and the positive things and the different things to keep in mind when you're kind of getting into it, I would say.



Will:

All right. Cool, cool. Well, I'll definitely make sure that is linked in the show notes, and I kind of like what you said about the Pareto principle like where can you put the least effort to get the maximum value. And if you're already building applications with JavaScript and things like that, it wouldn't be a complete paradigm shift for you to switch over, and as you get more comfortable, you can always add something later so that definitely does make a lot of sense.



Will:

All right, so I'm going to go ahead and switch over to kind of like the last couple questions that we ask on this podcast that's kind of unique to us. It's one of the things that Render is known for was the music and of course, the food. So the first question I wanted to ask you, let's say you were giving your big keynote at the biggest Web3 conference there is, what song would you come out to? Which one would get you hyped?



Nader:

I would say, I think it's probably going to be My First Day by Jay-Z.



Will:

Okay.



Nader:

Yeah. Or there's a bunch of Jay-Z songs I would probably choose from, but yeah, I like that one because it kind of reminds me of my a day to day thought process and work ethic, like treat every day like it's your first day but also remember how it was like 10 years ago when you didn't have anything. Because it's easy to get caught up with being successful or whatever success that you might have and forget about the struggles that you had. But I think that song reminds me to kind of remember when I had my first break, how thankful I was to even get that opportunity.



Will:

Yeah, man. I agree. I can feel that 110%. That's something I always do is remember to have gratitude for where I'm at, but always remember where I was from.



Nader:

Yeah...I think it's actually called My First Song.



Will:

Okay.



Nader:

But that's essentially what it's about. Yeah.



Will:

Cool. All right. And then the next question, and I know you probably got a good answer for this because I've seen your Twitter and Instagram. I know you like to eat. So what's your favorite food and specifically the one that kind of reminds you of home?



Nader:

Oh, so my family is Palestinian, my wife is Palestinian and she cooks a lot of really good Arabic food, so it's probably going to be something like ... There's probably a dozen dishes that I really like that remind me of home. I would say something like stuffed grape leaves and stuffed squash, which is kind of like an Arabic dish that my mom used to make and my dad when I was growing up. My wife makes and she loves, that's her favorite dish as well, so that kind of reminds me of home and it's probably one of the things I like a lot.



Nader:

And then there's Maqluba, which is another Arabic dish that is kind of like rice and vegetables and meat cooked into this pot, and then they flip it upside down when they serve it and it's called an English, they often say the upside down dish. So yeah, those two things are probably my favorite, but really my favorite food lately has been Indian food and I cook a lot of Indian food at home, and whenever I travel I try to find the best Indian restaurant I can find and eat that.



Will:

Oh, okay. Cool, cool. Yeah. That upside down dish sounds good. I might have to Google that.



Nader:

Yeah, M-A-Q-L ... Let me see how you spell it actually. Yeah, I think it's M-A-Q-L-U-B-A, and you'll see pictures of it.



Will:

Okay, cool. I'll give it a go. All right, so that'll actually come to the end of time for our episode so I just want to say thank you so much for joining and give us all this info about Web3. I hope that everyone who listens got some things to ponder and maybe some things to check out to continue on their journey and learn some new things. So is there anything else that you want to leave with anyone or places where to find you if people had any further questions?



Nader:

Yeah, I mean, I would check out just my Twitter @Dabit3, D-A-B-I-T and the number three. I would also check out my YouTube at Nader Dabit. I do a show called Shadowy Super Coders where I interview people in the Web3 space, all types of people from community managers to developers to founders and stuff like that, so those would be the two places I would check out for sure.



Will:

All right, cool. Well, thank you so much for joining us for Culture and Code and I will see you later.



Nader:

Thank you for having me, Will.



Will:

Peace. No problem.