Transcript



Ashley:

What's going on y’all! This is Culture and Code, a podcast brought to you by Render Atlanta. If you're not already familiar with what Render Atlanta is, we are an organization dedicated to increasing the presence of black and brown people in all stages of the tech pipeline. We do so with different events and at experiences focused on not just tech, but also culture and how it brings people together. Our main experience, which I am personally super excited about, is our annual Render Atlanta conference held in Atlanta. Our next conference will be June 1st through fourth in 2022. It is super exciting. We have a ton of great speakers lined up some amazing food, and even an after party music festival, it's going to be incredible. And I absolutely cannot wait for y'all to experience it. You have got to get in on it if you haven't already. To learn more about us and keep up with our events, you can visit our website renderatl.com. You can also follow us on Twitter or Instagram @renderATL and join the conversation on our Discord at renderatl.com/discord.



Taylor:

Welcome everyone to another episode of Culture and Code hosted by Render Atlanta. And I'm soon super excited for today's episode. We have a special guest today, who I personally think is an inspirational founder and is honestly one of the most interesting people I've had the pleasure of meeting this year. Today's guest is Lola Ojabowale, founder of Lunch Pail Labs and my personal introduction to the no-code movement, as well as the build in public. So we are so excited that you're here today, Lola, and I'm just excited to get this podcast up and started.



Lola:

Thank you so much for the very warm welcome. I am very excited to be here.



Taylor:

I like to always start off by asking simple questions. Nothing too crazy. So I want to know what have you been researching lately? What's in your tabs? What's just like top of your brain, Lola? I wish I could figure this out.



Lola:

Ooh, Ooh. Oh my gosh. That's a really great question. So I recently started this thing called a zettelkasten. It's a German word. It's a way of organizing notes and information, blog posts, and making connections between all of those. So it's like a second brain, and I've been using-



Taylor:

Gotcha. Gotcha.



Lola:

A lot of the things I've been trying to figure out in my zettelkasten are like Web 3. I feel like I hear a lot about Web 3 online. I do not completely understand how I should be leveraging the world of Web 3.



Taylor:

Same. Same.



Lola:

And then I've been also getting into a lot of philosophy. So a book I just finished that I love. I so, so recommend is called The Wanting by Luke Burgis. It's based on like René... I think René Girard's theories of like mimetic desire and how a lot of what we want and desire is actually based, whether we subconsciously even perceive it, on other people having things. So way to hack your wants and therefore, like what you're trying to like achieve is to be very conscious of who is your model of desire? Why you think you want what you want.



Taylor:

That is so fascinating. And I feel like that ties 100% into a lot of the media that we're seeing now about hyper consumerism and the effects of all of that. That is crazy, and I'm definitely going to read that book. That sounds so interesting. But going back to your German word, that I'm going to mispronounce, so I'm not even going to a try. So it sounds like digital gardening a little bit in terms of having your second brain, your notion, or your obsidian to dump all of your different thoughts and things together. So is that kind of what you're trying to do in terms of create this digital vault for you to store everything together?



Lola:

Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a really great way to put it. So yeah. The way I have it set up, it's like digital note cards, and what you do is as you read something, you'll put a digital note card, and the big piece is adding connections to other note cards. So you might see something in like Web 3, and you might also be reading this book about like mimetic desire and how other people having things shapes your wants, and those connections make sense. I've been into those ways of organizing information these days, in my spare time, but zettelkasten. I really like it.



Taylor:

I can see why. The flood of information that we have going on nowadays is a lot. And it's funny because I too feel like I am being influenced by the amount of like Web 3, blockchain, and Fintech technologies that are all coming out. I really enjoy video games and there's a lot of games coming out in the Web 3 space, and I'm just like, maybe I should be interested in it. Or maybe I should be thinking about moving in that direction, like segueing a little bit. I know that your talents and your forte really lie in building out no-code solutions. So for people who are not familiar with it, because I wasn't when I first met you, can you just give them like a little small brief rundown of what those no-code solutions are and just what no-code is in general?



Lola:

Oh yeah. Ooh. Favorite question. So yeah. I feel like no-code has existed in many ways for a long time, but it's, I think, only until recently that it's really starting to gain traction because people have been able to leverage these tools to build software, raise funds, build businesses, actually do serious things that they may not have been able to previously. But in a short sentence, no-code is an alternative to creating software, mostly base on configuration and pre-made building box code. It's really much a misnomer because there's a lot of code in the no-code.



Taylor:

Right.



Lola:

There's tons of code in the no-code. It's just the end-user producing the application isn't interacting with the code. They're interacting with a visual layer. There's been a lot of excitement around no-code because it is cheap in the cost for a lot of folks to be able to launch a prototype, launch a regular, even past their prototype, and support their business, from products to internal operations, to marketing websites. And so that's the basic gist, the no-code.



Taylor:

Got you. That seems really interesting and whole world really. That you can build essentially with, as you were saying, not that much code. So that's actually really interesting. So could you actually maybe explain how you would get started in no-code if you didn't really have any experience in it?



Lola:

I think there's definitely levels. I feel like, for me, my way of getting started with no-code is I was trying to do a [startup 00:06:46] and I did not know how to code. And I also did not have enough money to hire someone to build it for me.



Taylor:

That's real.



Lola:

So my motivation was trying to build this product. And so that was my first introduction. And I think a lot of folks, their first introduction to the world of no-code is that they have that use case. They're trying to build a product. They're trying to fix some process and they're like, "oh man, I could actually do this. I don't have to bug anyone."

And I remember I was so excited. The first thing I ever built with, people don't really call no-code platform, but you definitely don't have to code to use it was a WordPress site. And I was just over the moon. I was like, "man, look at me. I got a WordPress site. I put words on it." And that was just the best feeling ever. And so, I think that's how people get hooked. From there going to more advanced platforms, like Webflow has a bit of a learning curve. Now I do a lot of work with Bubble is a little bit more of a learning curve because you do have to know some programming concepts. Even though I started no code, I also do things with JavaScript and React now.



Taylor:

[inaudible 00:07:53].



Ashley:

What's going on y'all? If you're loving this episode so far, we'd love to invite you to join the conversation about it by hopping into our Discord at renderatl.com/discord. We'd also love to have you at our upcoming conference this year, June 1st through 4th in Atlanta, you can visit renderatl.com for more information. You can also find us on our updates on Instagram and Twitter @renderATL.



Lola:

The no-code to code pipeline is pretty strong.



Taylor:

Right. So like you said, it's misnomers. But actually, tying into the no-code movement, you also introduced me to building in public and that kind of thing ties into Lunch Pail Labs. So for people who are not one of your fan girls like me, can you explain a little bit what Lunch Pail Labs is?



Lola:

Yeah, for sure. Lunch Pail Labs, it's a digital product studio. So really the main service we provide is almost like product as a service. So we work with companies all the way from small businesses to some venture backed startups and they work with us to either iterate on new opportunities they want to capture. Build-out products and no-code, low code, and some code are the conduits to which we make all of that possible. Really started focusing on it in 2020, so this is almost two years now of existence. And through Lunch Pail Labs, tying back to your build in public question, really big believer in trying to open source everything, sharing what I know. Love the build in public movement and can also talk more about why I think more people should build in public and what that means.



Taylor:

Yes, for sure. I think a lot of people love that startup founder story and traditionally that's not something that you really get to see until it's, oh, 10 years later they're being acquired. And now there's a biopic about everything that happened. And we all know that's not how companies are built. That's not how things run. I think the whole build in public movement is super duper interesting. And so, I would love to know your take on it and like how you're doing it at Lunch Pail Labs.



Lola:

Oh yeah, for sure. So I completely agree with that. Yeah. I think for me, build in public kind of serves three, I'd say, main purposes. First, it's really helpful. Just for the person building to have this kind of record of, "Hey, we look back, this is what the company was doing. This is how I was thinking about things. This is the sort of products I was shipping. And these are how all of that has evolved."



Second piece, I think people have found that just by consistently sharing your story, sharing what you're working on, especially if you're building in public in an area where your potential customers live, is a natural and seamless way for lead generation. Finding new opportunities. Even with Lunch Pail Labs. All of the work that we do right now has been inbound, and a lot of it has been because somebody read a blog post or heard something on a podcast, or saw a tweet. By build in public, I think of is you are taking daily or whatever, cadence shots, you're putting shots into the universe. And you only need to couple baskets for you to really start kicking something off the ground.



And then when people know what you're working on and what you're trying to do, it's a natural way to get help as well. If you're stuck on something. If you're looking at hiring somebody down the road or growing the team. I think build in public also helps with that as well. Because folks can see, this is what it's like to be here and having that transparency out there.



And then I think that the third sort of bucket and reason that build in public is helpful is just that by you, sharing your story, and sharing what you're doing and being honest about it and authentic. Not just the "Hey, everything is awesome all day."



Taylor:

I'm winning every day.



Lola:

Yeah. You know, I wake up, I kill it. I kill everything. I don't think of build in public as just an avenue to shout of all the awesomeness that you are. It's just literally, "Hey." You're just-



Taylor:

I'm here. I'm so dope.



Lola:

Right? Sharing the good, the bad, all of that. I think it's also helpful for folks who, even if they don't want to do exactly what you're doing, I think by showing up and showing up in public, you're giving someone else the confidence to show up and show up in public in whatever they're doing. I would say those are the three main things. And yes, more, more built in public.



Taylor:

That's dope. Essentially what I got from that was it's a marketing plan. You can literally inspire others, and then it might also be a hiring plan if you ever need to hire someone. That's super cool. I happen to know that this is not your first startup that you have built. So what I will ask you is, what advice do you have for people who are interested in maybe using no code to start their own business or start their own venture? Do you have any tips for them so they can avoid some of the things that you went through?



Lola:

Oh, yeah. Absolutely. And I think that's another cool thing about no-code is because can quickly realize that a business is so much more than a product. I feel like with my first stab at things, Refolo, it was a meal planning app, I was just so focused on the product. I was like, "yo, I'm going to get this app. I'm going to put it on the website."



Taylor:

People need this.



Lola:

I know. People are just going to come here because this is brilliant and they're just going to do and buy things. It's going to be awesome. I think one of the benefits of no-code is you could hit that reality much quicker.

And then in terms of just advice in general for people first starting out, I think there are a couple of things that I wish I had been [inaudible 00:13:35] when I first got started. One, get super, super clear about the kind of business that you want to build. There's a lot of information on the internet of a bootstrap path or a venture-backed path or-



Taylor:

Right.



Lola:

And if you are trying to pursue something that's not really authentic to what you're trying to do, doing is hard enough. You are just going to tire yourself out. So I wish earlier on, I would have been more honest with myself. Because I just remember being in investor meetings like this isn't even making any sense. What am I here? Yeah. So getting really clear there, and then knowing that it's just a game of iteration. It's rare that you're very first hypothesis about how a product should run will magically be the thing that kicks off and generates a lot of money.



Taylor:

Right. Like you'll just get it right and this will be the thing. Well, awesome. Thank you so much for being on the podcast and chatting with us. And that is enough about the business and all those things. So we're just going to ask some questions for the culture.



Lola:

Yeah.



Taylor:

So what food reminds you most of your home? Because I don't know if you know, Render ATL is known for our food. So what food reminds you of where you're from?



Lola:

Ooh. I got jollof rice. I've-



Taylor:

Jollof rice?



Lola:

[crosstalk 00:14:57]. Nigerian. I had to shout out the jollof rice. My dad, so people call him Father Jollof because-



Taylor:

Oh wow.



Lola:

... growing up, he would jollof everything. Jollof spaghetti, spaghetti is not Nigerian. That's not Nigerian food, but he would jollof it anyway.



Taylor:

Why not? For the culture.



Lola:

[inaudible 00:15:15] culture. So jollof has a very special place in my heart.



Taylor:

Actually, it is really contested because different cultures believe that they have the best jollof, or the best rice in general. And I have just learned, being American, to just stay out of there. Just stay there and be like-



Lola:

Jollof wars are serious.



Taylor:

Right. Rice is good and that's does it. Okay. Very last question. I love to ask people this question because you know, one day it might happen, if you make it to the pinnacles, the top, and you are like getting to give this hype speech. What song do you want us to play? Like before you come on to hype you up?



Lola:

Ooh. The hype speech. The song for the hype speech?



Taylor:

Right.



Lola:

I've had Lose Yourself to Dance, Daft Punk, it was like 2017, with Pharrell on repeat. It's like my workout song, just very hyped up. So, yes. I do love-



Taylor:

I love that.



Lola:

... to dance.



Taylor:

We do love to dance here, especially at Render. You guys have never been to Render ATL. We do love to dance. We do have dance parties. You guys have definitely check us out. So this concludes today's podcast. So do you have anything that you want to shout out? Like how can we find you, Lola? For people who are not familiar with you?



Lola:

Yeah. For sure. I'm very active on Twitter. So Twitter.com/ojabowalola is my Twitter. And then you can always catch me on my website, lunchpaillabs.com.



Taylor:

Dope. Dope. Thanks for coming out today, and this was so much fun to do. And hopefully people will take a look, take a listen to some no-code, and maybe we'll have some more people in the pipeline come your way.



Lola:

Awesome. Cool. Cool. Yeah, no, definitely. Thanks for having me.