Transcript



Ashley:

What's going on y’all! This is Culture and Code, a podcast brought to you by Render Atlanta. If you're not already familiar with what Render Atlanta is, we are an organization dedicated to increasing the presence of black and brown people in all stages of the tech pipeline. We do so with different events and at experiences focused on not just tech, but also culture and how it brings people together. Our main experience, which I am personally super excited about, is our annual Render Atlanta conference held in Atlanta. Our next conference will be June 1st through fourth in 2022. It is super exciting. We have a ton of great speakers lined up some amazing food, and even an after party music festival, it's going to be incredible. And I absolutely cannot wait for y'all to experience it. You have got to get in on it if you haven't already. To learn more about us and keep up with our events, you can visit our website renderatl.com. You can also follow us on Twitter or Instagram @renderATL and join the conversation on our Discord at renderatl.com/discord.



Will (@willjohnsonio):

Yo. What's up, everybody? Welcome to the Culture & Code podcast presented by RenderATL. Today's guest is Taylor Desseyn. He's a senior recruiter advocate at Vaco. So, thank you so much for coming on the show today, Taylor. Go ahead and introduce yourself.



Taylor:

Yeah. And again, Will, thanks for inviting me. And obviously love what Render's doing, and excited to be here. So, yeah, again, my name is Taylor Desseyn. I'm a senior recruiter advocate at Vaco. Vaco is a global brand at this point. We have a ton of offices across the country. We are a staffing and consulting company, so we do everything from basic level staffing, "I need a developer. Can you find a developer?" to we do huge projects. We take on a lot of consulting services and manage projects from a software perspective. We do also accounting and finance and all the rest, but I'm particularly in the software space. I've been doing it for 10 years now, led some teams internally. And then even now, I'm running a team from scratch. Actually, our team name... Will, I haven't even caught you up on this. Our team name is called NERD-



Will:

Okay.



Taylor:

... which is the Nashville Engineering Remote Division. So basically, me and my team, we go after fully remote engineering jobs across the country.



Will:

Okay. Cool, cool. So those are the main jobs you recruit for now is remote jobs?



Taylor:

Yep. Remote jobs, fully remote, in the engineering space. Yep.



Will:

Okay. Cool, cool. For the people who aren't really sure what a recruiter does, because some companies have their own recruiters within the company, so could you explain what do you do as sort of a outside recruiter and how you help people?



Taylor:

Yeah. My mom doesn't even really know what I do still after 10 years. So I'll try to break it down to where Karen Desseyn, my mother, ever listens to this, she'll understand finally. So basically, my job, boiled down, is to make friends with nerds. That's it.



Will:

I love it.



Taylor:

At the end of the day, it's building relationships with people who are in the engineering, coding, whatever space, right? I would say a little bit... So that's bare bones, 101. I'd say 201 is really helping. And what my motto and goal is, and especially with my team too, is helping the job seeker unlock their potential in the job search, make the job search more approachable, and then also helping hiring managers in tech hire better, hire faster, be able to evaluate talent quicker. That's also what I try to help with as well. So it's twofold, job seeker and hiring manager, and really just help uncovering a lot of the weaknesses that people deal with day in, day out.



Will:

So what is maybe some of the misconception, or maybe the biggest misconception, you see that people have with what you do as a recruiter?



Taylor:

I would say the biggest misconception, just as a recruiter period, is we're money hungry, and we're salesy, and we're just out to make a buck, right? And again, recruiters have a bad reputation. I'm not going to sit here and say, "They're wrong," or anything like that. Most people are right. Most recruiters are just out here to make a buck and not care about people. I'm very blessed. The team I'm on, we have over 40 years of recruiting experience combined, just with the six of us. And we are professionals, we understand people, we want to help people, and that's our goal. And so I'm trying to flip that script, which is why I put out so much content on the internet, which is how Will and I met. But I put out so much content to actually try to help change the narrative of who and what recruiters are.



Will:

Okay. And I would say you're definitely succeeding in that.



Taylor:

I appreciate that.



Will:

The amount of info that you share, tips, the live stream you do every morning, you definitely show that you're about helping people. And it's incredible, because if I'm not mistaken, all the content you put out online actually helped you in your job, right?



Taylor:

Yeah. Kind of crazy, right? So quick backstory about my content journey. And if you listen to this, you're probably like, "Oh great. Here's another podcast talking about content," because I feel like everyone's talking about it these days. But for me, what happened, when COVID hit, March of 2020, my job as a recruiter, pre-COVID, was very... It wasn't scalable. When I say scalable, my job, pre-pandemic, was, "Will, you and I are going to go grab lunch together, me and you, which we still need to do."



Will:

Yeah, I'm down.



Taylor:

Awesome. And then after our lunch, I would drive to go meet a candidate for coffee, right? Then after that candidate coffee, I then would meet another job seeker at our office at 3:00, right? I would do that day after day, year after year. It's just not scalable. And so I was starting to get pretty hot and heavy on the speaker circuit, with conferences in the Southeast right before COVID hit. Then COVID hit. I was like, "Great. What do I do now?" So I basically created this live show where I went live. I hate saying live show. It seems so weird, but that's just what it is. I go live every morning at 9:30 AM Central. I would just blabber. I would basically just try to help people write... I would talk about writing a resume, writing a LinkedIn, all that stuff.



Taylor:

Well, I kind of took a page out of Alex Lieberman's book with the Morning Brew. So basically, I would just go live for 8 to 12 minutes, super simple. So anyways, long story short, basically, a year and a half later, my show gets around 10,000 views a month total on LinkedIn, podcast, putting out content, really helping people try to navigate the job search by telling other people's stories.



Will:

That's really cool that you were able to take a situation that could have been bad for the type of work that you're in, meeting people in person, in offices and lunches, and was able to flip it, use the internet, and gain some traction that way. So that's really cool to see you do that. That bring me to my next question. With you having all the experience, talking to all these developers, placing that many people at different jobs, new jobs, if you could distill maybe three things that a candidate can do to stand out in the sea of developers that's out there-



Taylor:

Man, I think social presence. I mean, listen, I met you on Twitter, right?



Will:

Mm-hmm.



Taylor:

This is our first time meeting "in-person," over Zoom.



Will:

Yeah.



Taylor:

As we record this, right. We're over Zoom. It's my first time seeing you, your face outside of your avatar.



Will:

Yeah.



Taylor:

Right? And that's what's crazy though, because I feel like I've known you forever. I feel like I've known you for a long time, and all that's because is because of Twitter, right?



Will:

Yeah.



Taylor:

And so I feel like if you really want to stand out in today's sea of developers, especially because we live in a virtual world now... Listen, I'm not talking about the metaverse I'm not talking about web three or crypto. I'll talk about those all day, but we live in a virtual world, right? Will and I, right now, are recording this podcast over Zoom, virtually, right? A lot of people... My entire team is virtual. All of our calls are virtual, right? We live in a virtual world, and I feel like people have to get comfortable networking in a virtual world, over Twitter, over LinkedIn, doing podcasts. Now, you're probably Taylor... But hey, but I'll tell you this though, my brother, zero social media presence, zero anything, and he's done great for his career. So I want you to...



Taylor:

For those of you who are listening, I'm not sitting here saying that's the only way, right? I'm not saying you have to have a social media presence be successful. I know a lot of developers have zero social media experience that are just fantastic developers, have great careers. But if you have always been interested in developing a public brand about who you are, what you want to be known for, now's the time to do it, because most... Like I said, every morning, I interview either a job seeker or hiring manager. The hiring managers I've interviewed on my live show all have said one thing. When they have an open job, they're going to the people who they know or I've met virtually first.



Will:

Okay.



Taylor:

So if you are not getting on hiring managers radars virtually, you're going to be at the bottom of the pile off the get, right? And so I would do that. I'd also too, if you are... This is more on the junior side, but I'm really passionate about this. If you have the ability to take on free work, right? I get pushed back on the slot. "Taylor, that's ridiculous. Never sell yourself short. You should always get paid." Listen, I get it. But at the end of the day, let's call what it is, trying to get your first job in tech is incredibly difficult. If you have time, if you have one hour, two hours, three hours, five hours a week to volunteer at a nonprofit church, whatever, do that. Because I will tell you this, and if I'm looking at junior developers, I'm always taking the person who has real world experience volunteering than a developer who's taking 15 [UW 00:09:20] courses.



Taylor:

But if your resume sucks or your LinkedIn sucks, you're going to have a hard time getting in the door now. There's probably some rockstar developers listening to this, rolling their eyes, be like, "Well, I've done just fine, Taylor." Well, great. You probably have a network, which is the main point, right? At the end of the day, social currency, right? Forget crypto, forget Dogecoin, whatever, right? What's your social currency? Right? How many people do you know? Right? How many people go to bat for you? If I lost a job, I'd message Will immediately. Like, "Hey, Will, is there anything that I could take from an advocate role with your company?" Right? And I'm sure will probably ask around, right? And so my thing is, it's who you know, at the end of the day, is going to really what propel you in your career. So that's probably, I would say my third biggest thing I want to rant on.



Will:

Okay, yeah. I would definitely agree. Having a network really helps you out. And like you said, if things get bad, it is easy to get advice. What's better to tell you how to pass the interview than a person who's passing the interview.



Taylor:

Right.



Will:

You know what I mean? So, yeah. I definitely agree with you there. Thank you for those tips.



Will:

Yo, what's good? If you're enjoying this episode, we'd love for you to hang with us and talk about it in the Render Discord. You can join at RenderATL.com/Discord. We'd also love to kick it with you in person at our conference. It's June 1st through 4th in Atlanta, you can get your tickets and more information RenderATL.com. You can also stay up to date with us on Twitter and Instagram @RenderATL.



Will:

One thing that you mentioned, March, 2020, COVID hit.



Taylor:

Sure.



Will:

Everything went virtual. A lot of things have changed with all of our careers. So I wanted to ask you, what has been the most surprising thing that has happened that's changed since March, 2020, when it comes to recruiting?



Taylor:

Well, so I mean, I think first off, I mean, when COVID hit, the how behind, some cities weren't paying their people to the national average, right? I mean, I would say that's... I mean, Nashville, I'm not kidding you, on average, I would get developers in Nashville $50,000 raises



Will:

Woo.



Taylor:

That's how behind. I mean, literally so mid... So I'm going to put in perspective, right? And this is just going to blow some people's minds, right? Seniors in Nashville were only getting paid $125,000.



Will:

Yep. That sounds about right here in Missouri too.



Taylor:

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Right. So, yeah. Now, you're probably listening to this like, "Well I'd love a $125,000 salary." Yeah, but some seniors are getting paid 185 now, 185, 195, 200, right? And that's not FAANG or FAAMG.



Will:

It's [inaudible 00:11:58]



Taylor:

[inaudible 00:12:00]. That's what we're doing. But you know what I'm saying though? It's crazy. So I mean, so that's the first thing. I think the second thing is, and it's been unfortunate, because I've seen a lot of developers jump for what they thought were good opportunity, companies have just started hiring with reckless abandonment now. There's no intentionality behind hiring. I remember being on a call and we asked one hiring manager, "Hey, what's this person actually going to be doing?" And literally, the hiring manager could not answer. They literally go, "I don't know." And we're like, "What? What do you really don't know?" Because what happened was, is 2020, budgets were put on hold, right? They were still hiring. 2020 was actually a decent year for us still, but 2021 was like throwing gasoline on a fire, right?



Taylor:

So you had all the budgets that were held in 2020, and then they were freed up to go... Not only were the 2020 budgets freed up, but then you had 2021 budgets, right? So it's like you got this mass frenzied hiring this year. So what that's done is it's made hiring managers lazy in being intentional when it comes to hiring. And so that's been an unfortunate downside of this whole thing. I think another thing too, and this is going to be a little bit more related to the recruiting industry just specifically, is that if you are not putting out content and you are not trying to be known online, as a recruiter, right? Listen, I understand developers are developers. They're introverts. They don't want to really be... I understand that, right? Y'all chose to be a developer for a reason, and it probably wasn't putting yourself out there daily, right?



Taylor:

But I will tell you this, recruiters, we're, for the most part, extroverts. I'm an introvert, but that's another conversation in and of itself. But the thing is though, recruiters, the only way to sell and the only way to get yourself out there, to get business, is be online. I mean, there are people that are struggling right now trying to get new business, because they don't have any sort of brand and they're calling the same 15 hiring managers that they were calling pre the pandemic, because they're not meeting anybody else, right? They're just kind of staying in their own kind of white walls, I guess you could say. I don't know.



Will:

Yeah.



Taylor:

So, I think for me, I think the recruiting industry needs to put on high alert, put on notice, that I think if you are not trying to move your entire book of business online over the next 10 years in the recruiting space, you are going to lose and you probably won't be successful anymore.



Will:

Okay, cool. Cool. And that [inaudible 00:14:04] sense. Oh, cool. Go ahead.



Taylor:

All right, one more. And I want to put this on record, because I'm starting to see this happen, and I want to put this on record, and I want this podcast to be where I put it on record.



Will:

All right.



Taylor:

All right, so Will, cut this clip up, whatever you got to do from a content side of things. I think we're going to start seeing the introduction of the four day work week now. And here's why. I think you're going to start seeing companies who can't pay. And I'm not saying FAANG or MAANG rates, I'm talking about just what we talked about, right? Staff levels up to around 200 that I'm seeing, 225. Seniors up to 185, 195, mid [inaudible 00:14:33]. If there are companies that can't pay that, where are they going to start doing? They're going to start offering four day work weeks. And I'm already starting to see it happen. And so I want to put it on record now that I think that's going to be a trend. I think over the next five years, the companies who cannot pay are going to go to four day work weeks to try to bring more people into the organization that they couldn't potentially get with salary.



Will:

Heard it here first [inaudible 00:14:57]



Taylor:

Literally heard it here first. I think this is the first podcast. I've done a few this week. I think this is the first time I said it.



Will:

Cool. Well, we'll save this in time bank.



Taylor:

Yes.



Will:

And we'll pull it out five years from now. Yeah. Next thing I kind of want to ask you about, because again, you've talked to a lot of developers-



Taylor:

Yeah.



Will:

... seen a lot of resumes, helped a lot of people through the interview process. So if you had a magic wand and you could wave it for everyone to stop doing this one thing, what would be that one thing that people need to stop doing?



Taylor:

I can only pick one thing?



Will:

You can pick as many as want.



Taylor:

I don't know if this is the most important thing, but this is the thing that I want to get across in this moment. Stop being negative in public.



Will:

Okay.



Taylor:

There's a lot of people out there with a lot of baggages that tweet all the time, that post all the time, mainly tweet, because that's where a lot of the engineering community lives, and that's kind of who I communicate with. There's a lot of people that tweet regularly about how stressed they're at the job search. "Woe is me. Things suck, yada, yada. This manager did this. This hiring sucked." I mean, even the negativity that comes at my tweets. I'm just trying to help people, and I got people coming at me with pitch forks. So I will tell you this, at the end of the day, if you're struggling in the job search, you need to look at yourself. What are you posting online? What's your processes? Right? I see these stories that's like, "500 resumes submitted later, I found a job." Why didn't you stop 250 through and do something different?" Right? So, being negative in public is one. Then also two, I think I would wave... Okay. Okay. This is my answer now. This is my answer.



Will:

All right.



Taylor:

So it's two twofold, twofold, right? That's the first thing. Don't be negative. That's the simple fix, right? The big thing is, we are taught completely backwards on how to do the job search, because you know why, no one's actually teaching, which is why I tried to put out a crap ton of content. If I could have a wand and wave it, I would get everybody to stop applying to job postings with their resumes, and I would start building relationships in the DMs.



Will:

Yep. I agree a thousand percent.



Taylor:

I mean, quite frankly, I think if you're... So people struggle. They're like, "Well, I feel really sleazy. I feel like if I know there's a job at a company and I'm trying to build a relationship with somebody, I feel like I'm just trying to get to the job." And I understand that, but here's the deal. Just try to make friends first and let's see what happens.



Will:

Yeah.



Taylor:

Right? I tell this story all the time. My dad, at the time, he was 55 years old. This was pre-COVID. My dad was able to find a job on LinkedIn in the restaurant industry because he literally kept at it every day, and he didn't apply his resume anywhere. He just tried to build relationships on LinkedIn and his contact book in his phone, contact list. That's it. And so if I could wave a wand, it would be for people to approach the job search about building relationships first, not submitting your resume first.



Will:

So we're about to come to wrap up the episode, but there were a couple questions that we asked every guest on the Culture & Cold podcast that I wanted to ask you. So, we'll start with the first one. So if you were given a keynote speech at the biggest tech recruiting event and this was your... Is it Magnum Opus? Is that what they call it? Right?



Taylor:

I think so.



Will:

It's like your-



Taylor:

I think so.



Will:

... greatest talk ever, what would be the song that you would walk out to that will get you hyped to get the crowd ready?



Taylor:

So, Girls Just Want To Have Fun by, I think it's Cyndi Lauper.



Will:

Yeah.



Taylor:

That's my jam, man. I think it just makes people happy. That little keyboard intro kind of slide into the song. People just get hype over Girls Just Want To Have Fun, so that would be mine.



Will:

I could see that.



Taylor:

Yeah.



Will:

I could see that. All right. So the second question, so what is your favorite food, the one that reminds you of home? And that can either be your mama's house or just where you're originally from.



Taylor:

So, this is a great question. I got into this conversation with some people on my team. So, I grew up serving tables at Outback Steakhouse.



Will:

Okay.



Taylor:

And Outback Steakhouse is my shit. I don't if I'm allowed to curse on this. Listen, my dad... So my dad ran the Outback Steakhouse in my hometown for 25 years, right?



Will:

Okay.



Taylor:

So I was busing tables at like nine years old, right? I don't think that's illegal, but here we are. So, I mean, I grew up in Outback. I grew up eating a steak, the chicken. Boy, I'm telling you, that place has not changed 25 years. I literally had Outback [inaudible 00:19:21] and it tastes the exact same as it did 15 years ago. So for me, that is kind of my guilty pleasure. That's my favorite food. Anything from Outback is just like home. It's sentimental to me. They did change the chicken finger recipe, which I'm a little upset with. So Outback, if anybody from Outback Steakhouse listen to this, eventually, somehow you find yourself on Culture & Code podcast and you work at Outback Steakhouse, bring back the old chicken fingers, because those were far superior.



Will:

You got to do the survey thing on the receipt.



Taylor:

I know.



Will:

So they'll know.



Taylor:

I'm terrible at that stuff. I'm terrible at that stuff.



Will:

Yeah, I never do it either, even if they're giving something away, I'm just eh, whatever.



Taylor:

Whatever. Exactly. Exactly.



Will:

Taylor if there's anything you wanted people to know to keep up with you or anything like that, you could definitely share with us.



Taylor:

Yeah. So I go live from my LinkedIn every morning, so connect to me on LinkedIn, Taylor Desseyn, D-E-S-E-Y-N. I go live every morning at 9:30 AM Central. I'm on every single social media platform, Twitter, TikTok, Instagram, you name it. Tdesseyn is my handle, T-D-E-S-S-E-Y-N. And then if you just want to get in touch with me the old snail mail way, shoot me an email, taylor@vaco.com, V-A-C-O.com.



Will:

And maybe on another episode, we'll talk about how we're both mad that they took away fleets on Twitter. We'll talk about that.



Taylor:

Don't get me started. Do not even get me started. But yeah, we should totally talk about that next time.